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slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.74.133 on 12/02/07
texas

I got this email about shader machines and I thought i would post it up here along with my response just in case anyone else was wondering the same thing.


Hi Jeff,
I noticed on your Forum that you suggest color blending machine to run about 100hz, well I was thinking, don't you get a peppering effect? I've been tattooing like this for some time and have just set a machine to run 135hz for black and grey and find that it works well for color blending also...any ideas

My response-

Having a machine run fast is great for black and grey, My black and grey machine runs around 165Hz without a setup on it, But this machine would not be a good choice for coloring because it requires a very small gap to get a machine to run that fast, which works great for B&G but is not enough stroke for putting in solid color, Also machines running over 110Hz or so move to fast for thicker color pigments, The thicker the ink is the harder it will be for it to keep up with a fast moving needle, Like when people use powdered pigments they have to use a real slow punchy shader with slower hand movements to get it in solid, A fast short stroke machine might work fine for working with thinner pigments like yellows or colors cut with yellow and washes but it would struggle with thicker colors like white.

As long as your hand movements are consistent and you are dipping back and forth between colors to get the correct hue and value of color, You should not have problems with a "peppered" look. This is just my opinion and what works good for me, If what you are doing works for you then keep on doing it.



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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tattoobytony from IP: 74.138.79.130 on 12/08/07
Louisville, Ky

I understand what you are saying here in regards to speed of machine. I was wondering what gauge of spring do you use for your machine for your color work and what roughly is the thickness of your point gap.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.66.66 on 12/08/07
texas

I use Pulse springs, 20 gauge in the front and back, With 1/8th of an inch point gap.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tattoobytony from IP: 64.108.90.27 on 12/09/07
louisville, ky

I was using pulse springs but then switched to eikon only because I was told that since the pulse come bent as opposed to rolled that they would wear and weaken faster. Curious with your opinion on that.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.66.66 on 12/09/07
texas

Only the front Pulse springs come bent....and I've never broke a front spring. I've used Eikon springs also and had no problem with them, I just like the way the Pulse ones feel a little bit better.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by TOC from IP: 24.90.2.6 on 12/18/07
NYC

Do you use a Pulse machine for this type of set up? I have a Next Gen half coil that works great for this kind of work. My Pulse machines run better for color. I use a Solution for solid stuff and a Pandora for smooth color blends


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.66.66 on 12/19/07
texas

Pulse machines are all I use now except for a Tap Irons machine that I rock pretty often.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by TOC from IP: 24.90.2.6 on 12/20/07
NYC

Which Pulse Machine? I would think the Solution is a bit too slow and punchy unless you change the springs I guess you could set it up anyway you want. What is the duty cycle like, in the high 50's?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.66.66 on 12/20/07
texas

I do most of my coloring with a Solution, You can get that machine run as fast as you want. Duty cycle is around 45 or so.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by TOC from IP: 24.90.2.6 on 12/21/07

Sorry, I meant which machine and duty cycle for B&G.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.66.66 on 12/22/07
texas

I use a cutback Pulse Specialist liner for my black and grey machine, It's setup with a light 8 bar and 20 gauge front, 18 gauge rear springs, Not sure what the duty cycle is on that machine but I know it's low because of the thinner rear spring, Around 30 I think.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by TOC from IP: 24.90.2.204 on 01/09/08
NYC

Man, that's surprising. The only machines that I have that run in the 30's are slower punchy machines. Anything that runs faster wether a liner or a cutback shader runs in the high 40's or 50's.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by jefflovesmika@hotmail.com from IP: 24.155.76.212 on 01/10/08
texas

It has less Duty Cycle because of the thinner, lower tension rear spring.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tonyg from IP: 74.138.77.44 on 04/22/08
louisville, ky

What wrap do you use on the coils for your black and gray shader, also do you use the cutback spring for your front spring or the standard length?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.72.32 on 04/23/08
texas

I have 8 wraps on it, that's what comes standard on a liner machine and seems to work well for black and grey to. I use a cutback front spring so I can get the machine to run as fast as possible.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tonyg from IP: 74.138.77.44 on 04/23/08
louisville, ky

I tried swithching from 10 wrap liner setup to a 10 wrap shader setup on my solution and now it's only giving me a 19% duty cycle. So I put the other coils back on and the duty goes back to 42%. The coil sets are both brand new. Any ideas?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.72.32 on 04/24/08
texas

The only difference between liner coils and shader coils are the capacitors. Liner coils almost always have a smaller capacitor on them. This is assuming the coils we're talking about are prewired with a cap. The different size caps could cause the changing duty cycle.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tonyg from IP: 68.77.207.227 on 04/25/08
louisville,ky

No matter how bend I put in the back spring or how big or small the air gap the coils with the larger capacitor stay only at a 19% duty cycle and have no hit.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 24.155.72.32 on 04/25/08
texas

I would just stick to the coils with the smaller cap then.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by tattoobytony from IP: 68.73.144.233 on 05/23/08
louisville ky

I was just wondering, how much do you bend your rear spring before putting it on?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by jeff from IP: 24.155.70.210 on 06/01/08
texas

no certain amount, just enough that it works good.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by jb from IP: 24.139.192.44 on 09/15/08
puerto rico

hey jef about the 8warp coil, well i run one on my next gen and love the smooth shades i get from it, for b&g but i also got a bad brass bulldog shader to pack in the color but the coils died so dont know what coils will work on it best to pack the colors good, any sugestions? thanks in advance ;)


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 68.203.10.227 on 09/16/08
texas

I would just contact the machine builder and they should be able to set you up with new coils, or let you know where to get new ones that will work for that machine.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by nj from IP: 68.38.122.176 on 09/18/08
nj

Hey Jeff,

Still using Pulse machines? I've been thinking about getting another Solution. The new work looks amazing. Best tattoos on the internet.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by nj from IP: 68.38.122.176 on 09/18/08
nj

Hey Jeff,

Still using Pulse machines? I've been thinking about getting another Solution. The new work looks amazing. Best tattoos on the internet.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 68.203.10.227 on 09/18/08
texas

Thanks man!
I'm still using Pulse along with a few hand made machines.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by hawkings from IP: 74.72.199.57 on 11/03/08

what's your stroke like on your color machine? I would think that tat the htz you run them it must be a pretty short stroke. Do you just speed up your hand movement a little?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 68.203.10.227 on 11/04/08
texas

The stroke on most of my shaders are pretty big, around 2 millimeters.
Changing your hand speed is one of the most important parts of tattooing, sometimes you need to speed it up and sometimes you need to slow it down. It just depends on the machine your using, the persons skin your tattooing, and the type of ink and needles your using.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by aw8one from IP: 24.180.55.96 on 12/11/08
ca

did you change the springs on your solution to 20 and 20 to besides just making it run faster to hit SOFTER. Ive come to discover that stiffer springs produce a softer hit and take more power to put ink in. Did you want a softer hit do to the fact you use long tapers. Does 20 and 20 on a solution work well for say 11 mags. Im really liking bugpin mags but its slowed my work a bit so im trying 20 and 20 wich has my machine running around 98 i figure it takes less energy to put the needle in the skin so it may work well. just curious on your thoughts on this.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 68.203.10.227 on 12/11/08
texas

I have machines setup with 18 and 18, and some machines with 20 and 20. I like the 20 and 20 setup a little better, it runs a little more consistent for me.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Razor from IP: 74.72.201.65 on 12/13/08

I like 20 front and 18 rear with a thick O-ring. That gives me good speed with a soft hit and a nice stroke.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by DannyTucson from IP: 69.137.181.251 on 12/19/08
Tucson, AZ

to others with tons of questions eikon published whats "Machinegun Magazine" theres 8 issues pretty much all the stuff that jeffs been answering plus more but remember everyone tattoos different what works for jeff may not work for you


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by SEAN from IP: 70.129.200.9 on 02/01/09
Austin TX

When you say you run your solution at 100 Hz is that with or with out a setup on it?


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by Jeff from IP: 68.203.10.227 on 02/03/09
texas

With a setup.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by cnc from IP: 68.196.238.50 on 08/15/11
usa

in reply to a comment, I just want people to learn right.

"well i have a lower gage back spring so i guess the duty cycle is low"

NO, just cause you have a 18 gage or lower on the back dont mean cycle is low. You can have a 16 on the back and get 50% by roll/bending the back spring until yoy reach 50%. Yes gage has to do with cycle but how much tension you put on the back determines the duty cycle reading. You can have a 20 gage back or higher and have a low cycle by putting a little tension or nerly none at all. Duty cycle is very important , now you know how to set it. Gauge ,width,length of back spring and angle of deflection/tension all have have a play in duty cycle. Now also making the stroke shorter is not making it faster, Speed is controlled by the front spring, Ylu can have a fast machine or slow with ANY stroke. Long long ago artists used to think that how you change speed or how you speed a machine up is by just making the stroke shorter, WRONG, that will change it a small amount yes but nothing compared to the front spring, higher the gage,shorter, wider = faster, opposite to slow it down. I have a liner at 125 loaded with a long stroke to work off the neede and have it retract back up tube each cycle to keep ink flowing instead of a short ass stroke an having needle stick out of the tip when machine is Not running, thos is not good or ink flow. What works for some may not for others, the duty cycle and speed that i spoke about is pure physics and fact not theory or "my style" , it is pure info on the machine and how to change its performance. I build machines and speak to many builders. Eikon has magazines that have all the machine info you need, use what you want but its all fact not theory, figured out by the measuring device. Thats it, works for you and you like being where your at then keep going :) I'm just correcting wrong machine information. Again the gauge of the back spring dont determine the duty cycle by itself, the bend or roll in it/tension is the most important. Unless you use eikons non conventional a A bars or have a slant on your rear spring deck and keep that stroke it gives you. Changing one thing will then change other things lol. Just trying to help new commers learn correct. Your welcome


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by cnc from IP: 68.196.238.50 on 08/15/11
usa

Wow , ahaha i now see he wrote low gage/low tension. Sorry about that he was correct but shit at least now it is explained how to get your desired duty cycle reading. So there should be a amount of tension you always aim for unless your careless and even then still , tension is duty cycle and set after the stroke.


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by jeff ensminger from IP: 208.54.37.239 on 08/15/11
everywhere!

I'm all rotary now...so no springs for me!


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RE:slow shader vs. fast shader

Posted by holethrudaheart@Yahoo.com from IP: 69.205.146.47 on 11/10/11

hey jeff was wondering what a good starter machine would be?


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